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Author Topic: What is the 7th summit: is it Carstensz, Kosciuszko or Mt Cook??  (Read 132731 times)

ThomasL

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Reply on #58:

And as I wrote above in my too-long-contribution, if Cartensz is climbed, Denali and Elbrus shouldn't be climbed at all, leaving only FIVE tops totally left to be climbed.
« Last Edit: Jun 2 2005, 20:07 by ThomasL »
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pete

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Hello education,

Over the past few weeks I have been bombarded with inquiries about Mt everest.

My question to your department is: Why is Mt Everest being touted as the "Worlds highest mountain"?

That point is, in effect wrong.
Granted it is the worlds highest "peak", but not mountain. 

It appears that mountain height is taken from sea-level.  Which would appear to be wrong.

everest should be measured from camp 4. being 26,000',
the peak then being 3,028' and not 29028' as taught.

By that reckoning, If I stand on the shoulders of my son then I can honesty say that I am 14'6", correct?

However, Kilimanjaro stands on a plain and rises 19,340'.

So it would be the planets tallest terrestrial mountain, would it not?

If the worlds highest mountain was in Hawaii (which it is from base to summit).

It seems odd that we teach our young false-hoods and do not mind.  Is this the standard that National geographic is lowering itself to?

Kilimanjaro, Everest, Vinson, Aconcagua, Elbus and Carstensz are all "tall mountains but the wording should be tall "Peaks"
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landrover

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dear pete,

they say, "the higher the altitude the lower the IQ". my question is: are you at a high altitude at the time of your writing ? :?)  or just plain high on vegetables  :lol) when you made your observations ? just kidding pete  ;D

peak is defined as the top most or highest portion of a mountain, a hill or a mound.

a mountain is always measured from sea level.

some people might actually enjoy your line of thought if they were actually reading your statements on a 8,000 meter peak  :o
« Last Edit: Jun 14 2005, 01:13 by landrover »
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landrover's everest ascent 2006

landrover

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  • "My Range Rover on Mt. Pinatubo's crater rim"

dear trunl, i believe your point of view.

dear 7summiteer, your point is well taken.
THE BRAIN HAS TWO SIDES. both of you are obviously on two different sides of the human brain.

as i am using both sides of my brain, so i will climb both peaks.
« Last Edit: Jun 14 2005, 01:10 by landrover »
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landrover's everest ascent 2006

trunl

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Pete:
it could be argued by someone that everest, measured from base to top is 29,029 feet, if someone were to measure the base as sealevel of a continent.... so E would still be the highest....



Trunl
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Neil

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Hello education,

Over the past few weeks I have been bombarded with inquiries about Mt everest.

My question to your department is: Why is Mt Everest being touted as the "Worlds highest mountain"?

That point is, in effect wrong.
Granted it is the worlds highest "peak", but not mountain. 

It appears that mountain height is taken from sea-level.  Which would appear to be wrong.

everest should be measured from camp 4. being 26,000',
the peak then being 3,028' and not 29028' as taught.

By that reckoning, If I stand on the shoulders of my son then I can honesty say that I am 14'6", correct?

However, Kilimanjaro stands on a plain and rises 19,340'.

So it would be the planets tallest terrestrial mountain, would it not?

If the worlds highest mountain was in Hawaii (which it is from base to summit).

It seems odd that we teach our young false-hoods and do not mind.  Is this the standard that National geographic is lowering itself to?

Kilimanjaro, Everest, Vinson, Aconcagua, Elbus and Carstensz are all "tall mountains but the wording should be tall "Peaks"


I think I got stupider reading that. Height is measured from sea level. You do know that the plains on kilimanjaro are not at sea level and are over 8000 feet from sea level. Also your're pretty ignorant to label a mountains height by superficial obeservations. Instead of saying it should be measured from camp 4 maybe you should say height should be measure from a mountains col.
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sierramtngoat

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Holy crap, I just found this board and I'm amazed by this discussion.  Dick Bass is the first to climb the "7 summits," it was his idea, his quest, his journey.  People from all around the world took notice because of his book, and were inspired by it because HE WAS NOT A MOUNTAINEER.  If you want to follow in the footsteps of a visionary, climb the 7 he did, anything else would not the "7 summits" that he popularized.  People that want to make Carstensz #7 are foolish!  Why redefine perfection?  I respect Messner's skill, but he's just a jealous of Dick's vision.  Why must the mountaineering community try to redefine one man's vision?  Does it really matter if Carstensz is part of Australia or Oceania?  The point of the "7 summits" was to go beyond yourself in some way, set a goal, and see the world, not to be sucked into this stupid thread that started with a mountaineer's jealousy over something that has little to do with the sport of mountaineering.  The "7 Summits" includes Kozzie, because that is what Dick did.  Any other list should be called something else... like "7 Highest Points on Various Disputed Continents/Regions/World Parts/Land Masses that Exceed the Size of Greenland."
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7summits

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Thanks for that eloquent first post on the board  ::)
Did no-one ever teach you that if your opinion differs from somebody else's that that doesn't autmatically mean the other person is 'Stupid' or 'foolish'?

Ever been in a real discussion without reverting to useless comments like that? A little respect for other people's opinion will get you much further than useless comments like these, doesn't matter what subject and who is 'right'....

I guess anybody that doesn't live in your country, doesn't drive teh same car you do, has a different religion, votes differently or has a different skin colour is also stupid/foolish, correct?

A little respect will make this world a better place to live in.

Thanks and keep climbing
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sierramtngoat

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Okay, who is being judgmental now?  If you cared at all about other peoples' opinions, Mr. 6+1summits, then you would have a list of 8 and cite Dick Bass as being the one who invented the "7 summits."  It is obvious that you are from the school of thought that a guy (from my country) who has vision, but isn't a mountaineer, has no business on any peak list and should be excluded by tweaking the 7 Summits list.  What is disgusting about this web site is that it is built up around Dick Bass’s catch phrase “7 Summits”; I find that highly provocative and cheesy considering you are making money off it and trying to promote some list other than Dick’s.  I see this as plagiarizing, and it shows no creativity and respect in the end.  You really should do the right thing and pay homage to the man (Dick), despite whether you agree or disagree with his7 picks; it was his idea that has motivated so many people to do the 7+1. 

I’ve also gotten the impression that this site seems to be all about you stirring your own pot and not letting others vent their passions.  I have no problem discussing things with people that aren't in the business of ripping someone else’s idea (7 Summits) and trying to make it their own by trying to convince unknowledgeable people that your list is correct and not citing Dick so that (maybe) he’d be forgotten.  7 Summits is not your thing, and I am posting here to remind others, and you especially, of that fact.  This discussion about how many continents there are, and what the highpoints are on those continents would be fine in the context of geography lesson, but the 7 Summits, in my humble opinion, has little to do with what is geographically and/or politically correct.  Lift the smoke screen.  Encourage your readers to read Dick Bass’s book “7 Summits” so that they too can see the whole picture and be inspired by Dick's quest.

Thanks for the compliment on my eloquence; I know that I must have made my points juicy and clear, otherwise you wouldn't have felt so threatened by them and replied in the way that you did!  What a silly thread.  There is only one 7 Summits list; any other list would be a customization.

Respect is something that is earned; you are not in businees to earn respect so don't expect it from me cheese-ball.

Good day to you.
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sierramtngoat

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P.s..  Hey 6+1summits,
FYI, I am happily from and living in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is probably one of the most politically, religiously, ethnically, and sexually diverse places on Planet Earth.  I don't own a car either, so, your rip on me like I'm intollerent was way off base.  My advice to you would be to do your homework before lashing out, and remember, I can say what ever I please where I'm from.  Also, because I'm educated, expect me to comment first on the crap that you say because what you are selling is inaccurate.  If you'd like to do the same about what I write, then you'd have a leg to stand on; I'd also be impressed (not holding my breath on that one).
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7summits

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thanks for proving my point  ;D

I love San Fransisco, well done. It's the only place that comes near Amsterdam with regards to being politically, religiously, ethnically, and sexually diverse.
But even here we have people that call other people's opinions 'Stupid/foolish', so the geographic position clearly not defines the respect the inhabitants have for other people.

Anyway, if you would have looked a bit closer at the site you would have noticed that there are 2 lists, for both variations of the 7 summits. Also that I have said the following (amongst many other things) about Dick Bass:

"Dick Bass did what he wanted to do and it was a great achievement. He has inspired me to do mostly the same as he did, but new insights have led me to believe that my quest for the 7 summits is the real one. There is no absolute truth here though as the 7summits simply have not been defined/or have been defined in different ways if you like, my definition is one of many. "

And about Dick's book:
"This is the book that started it all and it is a great one. No it's not just two rich men buying themselves to the 7 summits, it's about men with a vision and the persistence to follow through. Read it before you judge, this is truly one of the 20th century mountaineering classics. It will help you with your dreams. (Harry)"

Of course you can call that crap as well, or any expedition operator that organizes CP trips (like Mountain Madness, Alpine Ascents, Mountaintrip or 7summits.com) etc cheeseballs, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. If you do not like this site, please visit something else, I won't cry about it. If you want to discuss and add something useful to this or other threads, I will let you even though it is my site and my opinion is different (and you revert to calling names). That is called discussion and respect. But you should know that, as you are from San Francisco.

There is no absolue truth in this matter and I do not claim to have it. If you do, then you are simply wrong, we both have opinions, and neither makes the other 'stupid/foolish'. By using words like that you take yourself out of a discussion and place yourself in a place without respect. But hey, that's my opinion, so it is probably crap & foolish  8)

And just to get a bit back on your views: Messner climbed 6 of the 7 summits before Dick Bass even started his quest. There was just no way that he could go to Vinson, else he would have finished before and his version is with CP. So just the fact that Mr Bass wrote a book first does not automatically mean he came up with the idea, even people before Messner have already tried (but not finished it). But Messner (Carstensz) definately started before Bass (Kozzie). Sorry, but that is not an opinion, but fact.

Best wishes from the lowlands
« Last Edit: Jun 22 2006, 12:40 by 7summits »
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Bill

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It doesn't matter anymore. There are two lists, one for each one's own idea about what compromises the 7 Summits. To argue the point is to waste your time. I chose the K version. Other climbers chose the CP version. No one is more right than the other, and to get excited about it (seirramtngoat) only goes to show that you prob. haven't climbed any of them.

There are two lists, so deal with it. Not a darn thing can be done to change it now.
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sierramtngoat

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Actually Bill, I'm not all that excited about it, I'm just board here at work like everyone else and have an opinion that I'm not afraid to voice.

7summits, your drop down list at the top "The 7 Summits" does not include Kozi, so a resonable person would think that it's not one, or that you don't believe that it's one.  Yes this is your site and you can post what ever you like but what you are projecting is that you are not one that recognizes the achievements of ordinary people or people that have vision.

"...but new insights have led me to believe that my quest for the 7 summits is the real one. "  Ah, so your quest is the correct one eh, so Dick was wrong all along and it is you that deserves the attention?  Dude, it's not you thing.  You just have a web site; if you seek glory, you'll have to try a bit harder, maybe come up with something original perhaps.  In the meantime, try making your site more comprehensive so that people that have a contrary view to the 7, or no view, will have all the information.

Messner never said that he wanted to climb the "7 Summits;” his goal was all the 8000ers.  Only after Dick had completed his journey did he proclaim that Dick didn't complete it correctly in attempt to deny him the prize.  It's ironic really, Dick being the first client on Everest, leaving a good portion of the mountaineering community, and perhaps yourself, licking their chops at the opportunity to climb Everest, a road that Bass basically paved for people that can't find enough sponsorship, that he would be denied complete recognition for what he did.

"Messner climbed 6 of the 7 summits before Dick Bass even started his quest."  I know this.  Clearly it was not Messner's quest to do 7, otherwise he would have called Chris Bonnington himself and set up the trip down there.  What Dick had was an original idea and for some reason, that didn't rest well with some mountaineers.  What I don't get, since Kozi is just a formality, is why Messner even bothered with climbing it.  Interesting.

"There is no absolute truth in this matter and I do not claim to have it."  Sure, you claim to have the truth, up above, you claim your quest is the "real one."

Personally, I don't see the point in digging deeper on this site.  Rooting around on sites that only focus on 7 peaks is not practical for me as I'm out every other weekend in the Sierra and am also not in the position in my life to spend tens of thousands of dollars climbing peaks that I have no personal attachment too.  I do want to climb D, A, and K someday, but not because Dick did it; I personally see no point in dropping 20K to climb an easy rock wall like CP; what a complete waste of money.  This site does have a lot of information about Messner's 7 though, so good job.  My beefs were just that you are using the name "7 Summits," and deny Kozi on your main list.  Also, with regards to the survey, I thought that it was provocative because you don't recognize Kozi and when people didn't sound off about that, or seemed denied a clean discussion by you, I got on my soap box.  I'm sorry I called you foolish, a cheese-ball, and I'm sorry if I've offended you.  Smoke a bowl for me there and and have fun with your creation.  I'll go away now.

cya
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Mountain John

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Hey cya,

There is no problem with differing opinions, but it does seem a tad strong.  Sometimes postings appear to be stronger than they are.

Listen, I am also in SF.  Did you make one of my presentations?  I did 6 of them here in the Bay Area.  If not, I have 2 more in the Sacramento area next month.  That is okay if you are not interested!

I talk about both those summits and the debate.  I mention Dick Bass is the first person, but there is legitimate debate in the rest of the world.  That is okay.  Dick is the first one on the Kosciuszko list.  I also talk about Harry and the 7summits.   Harry, not Dick, came up with this website, and he is nice enough to publish your postings.  I know many other hosts (other websites) that really micro manage and delete postings.

As far as Dick's mountaineering ability...I agree, so what.  Honestly, I have never heard that before, about discrediting him.  He did it.  Gotta respect that.  I haven't finished his book yet.  I met a guy in 2003 that told me he would not read Dick's book, because it was HIS (the guy i met) dream, and he did not want help from Dick's book!

I also talk about what constitutes a summit.  For instance, people ask me why can't you get assistance with gear on Denali.  I say, because i accept the mountaineering standard for each climb.  So the standard is carry your own gear, and start at 7,200 feet.

If you get assistance (porters, others), well, then it is up to you if you summitted, but others will judge you too.  That is okay, use your own standards and principles.

Check the info about the presentation here.

When I talk about these mountains, repeatedly people tell me they appreciate my humbleness.  I tell them it is hard work, but they should go after their dreams and passion.  Live your passion.

Mountain John
« Last Edit: Jun 23 2006, 10:44 by 7summits »
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Bill

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cya,

No worries. I happen to agree with you about this whole thing.



[I met a guy in 2003 that told me he would not read Dick's book, because it was HIS (the guy i met) dream, and he did not want help from Dick's book]

Mountain John, did you by chance meet that guy at a presentation about Denali and the seven summits??

If so, I bet that was me!! HAHAHA
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Bill

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I meant to say I agree about the K vs. CP.
I know Harry and think he is great guy just doing what he loves. I also think this is a cool site with tons of info for anyone who wants to climb these mountains.
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Mountain John

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Hi Bill,

Yes, that was you!!!  How ya doing?  I went to that presentation about your and Guatam's wild trip up Denali.  I used your advice for training, when you guys climbed a mountain 3 times a week for 4 months.  I took it pretty seriously and summitted Denali the next season.  then Aconcagua and Everest.  so i now have 5.  when i met you, I only had one done (Elbrus).  full circle huh?  I remember you guys were going back to Aconcagua as only one of you had summitted.

Did you know I met Guatam and his girlfriend and friend for dinner earlier this year, to give advice for Everest.  I followed his trip, and I think he got ill or something and did not make it.

We'll have to get together soon.  John
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Mountain John

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and yes, Bill, I remember you were very strong on K. not CP.

and yes, you were very strong on not reading Dick's book.  That surprised me a little, but hey, it is your dream!!
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m.c. reinhardt

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O.K.  Here is an opinion of someone who is not currently on a quest to do the 7 summits.  Key word is opinion.  If I were on such a quest, I personally would choose to attempt both versions.  But it seems to me that each individual climber should select the list they feel is right for them.  Out of the three current lists, CP, K or both, none of them are "wrong" (in my opinion.)

My understanding of "continents" is that the definition has changed throughout history.  And to compound that fact, currently the definition of a continent is taught differently all over the world.  In other words, what I was taught in school is not necessarily what someone else was taught.  There are quite a few versions of how many continents there actually are.  And if you go with "7", that brings you to this discussion!

Lastly, I will leave you with the following link.  I don't know how accurate it is but it is an interesting addition to this discussion.
http://www.abc-of-mountaineering.com/articles/historysevensummits.asp

Cheers,
MC  :)
« Last Edit: Jun 25 2006, 12:52 by mc »
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Bill

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Mountain John,

How cool to meet you. I remember Gautam talking about a guy who after our presentation went out and had more summits than us!! Nice job.  It is a whole lotta work to get these done, and 5 in 3 yrs. is a pretty good job.

When is your next presentation? Would love to go check it out.

What I meant about the Dick Bass book was that I wanted it to be as "pure" as I could have for my try. Of course it was done by alot of other folks before me, but I wanted to learn and experience it as best could be done without having a "guide book" so to speak. It aint just my dream, as can be seen by a whole lotta folks now doing it. I meet people all the time who are going to do the 7. I think that is why mountains like Everest are getting more and more "crowded".

Anyway,I just do not want anyone to think I was conceited enough to say it was my dream, as in the first, etc. I am just trying to follow in the footsteps of giants.

I had issues this year on Everest, and now I am trying to get back there next year. Money, money, money. I climbed with the 7summits-club expedition along with Harry.

Bill
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