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Author Topic: Oceania highest mountain  (Read 33881 times)

Mountain John

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Oceania highest mountain
« on: Dec 26 2007, 11:42 »

Harry,

What do you think about a third version of Oceania's highest mountain?

In addition to Kosciuszko and Carstensz, what about Wilhelm?

According to National Geographic, Rand McNally, The Times - London, DK atlas, Oxford, Mapquest, WorldAtlas.com, US govt. www.cia.gov   United Nations   www.un.org    and many more

Wilhelm is the higheest in Oceania  it is inPapua New Guinea.

what u say, a third version??????

Your good buddy, Mountain John

John Christiana
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #1 on: Dec 30 2007, 10:18 »

Anyone have any comments on above??

Maybe post comments later.....

Mountain John
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #2 on: Dec 30 2007, 10:35 »

Harry,

I submitted my status on the 7 summits on the link you provided me.  I know, I know, there was a lot of debate and questions on this forum, when I climbed Vinson last December 2006, whether I finished the 7 summits or not.  I wanted to wait until i finish my website www.7ContinentSummits.com until I discuss it with the world.

In my opinion, there are 3 versions of the 7 summits:  Carstensz and Kosciusko have been accepted for 20 years now and should still be accepted.  but there is a third version that I think should be accepted:  Mt Wilhelm in Papua New Guinea.  Check almost ANY atlas or check my website for links to National Geographic, United Nations, and more.

Mountain John
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m.c. reinhardt

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #3 on: Dec 30 2007, 10:47 »

Two words: political boundary.
« Last Edit: Sep 29 2017, 03:06 by m.c. reinhardt »
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #4 on: Dec 30 2007, 11:10 »

For the world….my 7 Summits list:

Elbrus, summitted June 14, 2003 (booked through Harry!)
Kilimanjaro, summitted December 28, 2003 (used Zara!)
Aconcagua, summitted February, 21, 2005 (private)
Everest, summitted June 2, 2005  (summitted with Harry!)
Wilhelm, summitted Sept 20, 2006 (one of the 3 versions)
Vinson Massif, summitted December 17, 2006 (booked with Alex and Harry)

As far as Denali, Robert Williams, Ben Barranko, and I thought we reached the summit in June 2004, in a white-out snowstorm at 2 in the morning and we were in great condition.  We told the park rangers exactly where we were with a picture of a bench mark, and they said they will count us as summitting.

But recent events have led me to believe we did NOT reach the actual summit.  We now think we were on a false summit just 10 minutes of the actual summit.  So I plan to go back to climb Denali in 2008 and also 2009.  My passion is the 7 Summits!!

Mountain John Christiana
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #5 on: Dec 31 2007, 02:34 »

Hey Amigo,

thanks for the notes and honesty. It appears that you climbed just a point on the ridge of Denali. It is great that you are going back, so you never have to be in doubt about what you climbed.

About Wilhelm: it is very cool that you climbed it. I definitely think that it is a better candidate than Mt Cook, as it has the same reasoning behind it and is simply higher :)
But Carstensz is on the same continent/island as Wilhelm, so for me and all the others it is just the question of which continent it actually is, i.e. if Carstensz or Kozzie is the one..

Cheers my friends,

Harry
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #6 on: Dec 31 2007, 05:48 »

Thanks Harry and MC for the comments!

Just like one of my climbing partners on that Denali trip is going back in 2008 (Bob Williams aka Frodo), my plan is to go back in 2008 AND 2009.  I am now convinced I did not summit.  The reason I will go back in 08 AND 09 is I have several friends that have asked me to be a part of their team.  I do not think I want to mix these friends on the same Denali team.  I do want to make sure that I summit in 08 though, and if I have to go solo, I will.  MC, maybe you can join the team in 09?  My philosophy is that the team should discuss ahead of time all options if someone gets sick or tired.  Of course, safety is first, but I believe safety and success can both be achieved.

AS far as what constitutes a summit, I think that you need to believe yourself that you were on the summit (not what a guide, the park rangers, other climbers tell you), so this is why I am now going back for sure.

AS far as the Oceania thing, I truly believe Wilhelm is the highest, so I am okay with that.  I will certainly climb Kosciusko as well as that was my plan all along, as I have had separate plans to go with good friends (Tanya) and past girlfriends (Breanna), but it just got delayed.

But Harry, as mentioned, I believe ALL 3 versions have good merit and will stand the test of time.

I am really happy that the 7 summits passion is alive and well.  If you think about it, it was just over 20 years ago that Dick Bass started the dream for all of us.  So in the whole realm of things, the 7 summits is just in the beginning stage.

All the best, Mountain John Christiana
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m.c. reinhardt

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Re: Denali
« Reply #7 on: Dec 31 2007, 10:34 »

MC, maybe you can join the team in 09?

Hey John

Denali in '09 is a possibility and Dave is even open to me going!!! I'm doing Adams this spring (great group of climbers I've hooked up with), Hood in June, Rainier (Dan Mazur's Glacier School) July 5th, Pico de Orizaba next fall and I'd like to do Baker just before attempting Denali in '09. Denali would be a big challenge for me so much is dependent on my physical condition at that time. Let's keep the dialog open on this one! 8)

MC
« Last Edit: Feb 1 2008, 23:50 by m.c. reinhardt »
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Mountain John

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Denali summit
« Reply #8 on: Jan 1 2008, 05:33 »

MC,

Denali is one of the toughest 7 summits (behind everest and vinson)!

But it can be done SAFELY and SUCCESSFULLY, if you have the right knowledge, skills, experience, proper gear, proper training, stay healthy, be patient with weather, and have the right mental fortitude!  YOU HAVE TO WANT IT!

Mountain John Christiana
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m.c. reinhardt

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Re: Denali summit
« Reply #9 on: Jan 1 2008, 06:21 »

John

Working on the skills, experience and training. I believe there is a chance I could be ready by the Denali '09 season. Time will tell. We'll stay in touch on this one.

Best of the best to you!
MC :)
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #10 on: Jan 2 2008, 19:29 »

Harry,

I submitted my status on the 7 summits on the link you provided me.  I know, I know, there was a lot of debate and questions on this forum, when I climbed Vinson last December 2006, whether I finished the 7 summits or not.  I wanted to wait until i finish my website www.7ContinentSummits.com until I discuss it with the world.

In my opinion, there are 3 versions of the 7 summits:  Carstensz and Kosciusko have been accepted for 20 years now and should still be accepted.  but there is a third version that I think should be accepted:  Mt Wilhelm in Papua New Guinea.  Check almost ANY atlas or check my website for links to National Geographic, United Nations, and more.

Mountain John

Nice website so far - interesting debate regarding Wilhelm too! Hadn't considered that third option. Why not climb all 3 versions :) (Just to be sure). Couldn't help noticing Carstensz described as a day hike - I assume that's a typo? :)

Also there's another spanner to throw into the works (although lower than Wilhelm and Carstensz). It's a little-known fact that the highest point on Australian territory is actually Mawson's Peak. Located on Heard Island, Mawson's Peak is 2745 metres high and forms the summit of an active volcano called Big Ben. Heard Island is well south of the Australian continent (73°30' East, 53°05' South), approaching the coast of Antarctica in the Southern Ocean. (For the REALLY pedantic types who want to climb the highest in Australian territory. Also there might be some antractic Australian territory peaks - these aren't in Oceania though.The highest recognised mountains in the Australian Antarctic Territory are Mt McClintock (eastern sector - 3490m) and Mt Menzies (western sector - 3355m). Elevations in excess of 4000m exist in the western sector, in the vicinity of 82°E 56°S, and although these are generally not considered mountains, the definition is frequently debated.
« Last Edit: Jan 2 2008, 19:31 by MoT »
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #11 on: Jan 3 2008, 06:56 »

Thanks MoT,

This is really all I've wanted....world discussion.

But for anyone to seriously consider another version, obviously I have to have substantial and solid information as to my third version to be a viable alternative.

Yes, I agree, I'll do all three versions!

Yes, yes, that is a typo (Carstensz being a one-day) ;D.  My webguy will be fixing several of these typos, including the completion lists for ALL 3 versions.

Mountain John
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #12 on: Apr 1 2008, 07:00 »

Hey you guys put together a Denali group I would like to be kept in the know. 09 would be perfect for me bcuz I am doing Baker and Rainier this year so I would be fully stoked to get in on Denali with a good bunch of cat's. Terry Hackaday (hackaday1@hotmail.com) 319-795-4321. 10 Suncrest Keokuk, Iowa 52632  Thanks alot for considering me .... Terry  ;D
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #13 on: Apr 1 2008, 12:05 »

Terry,

thanks for your interest.  yes, 09 is up in the air.  I have a friend, Adam that is co-organizing that trip.  I will ask him (since i don't have mine handy) to send you a mountaineering climbing resume.  At your leisure, you could fill it out and e-mail it to us.  this is good to have anyway so you can look at it and determine what skills you might want to work on.  Mountain John
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #14 on: Apr 1 2008, 19:53 »

Hey Guys!

Always the same debate about the highest in Oceania. I have to side with Harry on this one, Carstensz is on the same island as Wilhelm. it doesn't make a difference to me if it is in a different country. We are talking about continents, not countries. And I've done Carstensz and not Wilhelm ;D

About Denali 09, I'm leaving for Denali on May 10 for number 6 of 7. If I don't make it this year (so far the first 5 were summited on the first try, I have good karma), I might want to join your group in 09. It would be nice to see and climb with you guys after a couple of years ofdiscussing on the web.

MikeW
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #15 on: Apr 2 2008, 10:27 »

Mike, sure, all views on Oceania are respected.

As far as Denali, I think you would add value to any team.

And yes I agree, it would be nice to meet you sometime.

Hope all is well with you.  Mountain John
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #16 on: Apr 11 2008, 19:00 »

I have exchanged several e-mails with Mountain John on this topic. We agree to disagree.

Imo, the commercial atlases and publications that he cites prefer to copy each other, errors and all, than to carry out their own research and checks.

I oppose the case for the continental partition of the island New Guinea. It makes no geographical sense, and I oppose it on cultural grounds too, because the local population is of the same Papuan stock on both sides of the political division (West Papua and PNG). The term "continent" is, or should be, geographical, not political. Continental divisions do not need to follow international borders.

Infact, there are strong geographical grounds for challenging the claim that Elbrus is in Europe; the natural, geographical intercontinental border runs north of the Caucasus. But such a challenge would be resisted on cultural grounds by the Georgians and Armenians, who consider themselves European. There is no such conflict in New Guinea.
« Last Edit: Apr 11 2008, 19:08 by viewfinder »
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #17 on: Apr 12 2008, 20:22 »

Some atlases or references do copy others, Jonathan is correct there. For instance, Reader's Digest does NOT have their own cartographers, and that is why I do not reference them as an arbitrary source.

What some people fail to realize is that most of these sources have their OWN cartographers. They would be insulted to hear they do not do their own research. I have 30 atlases so I would know. They list their cartographers of course. Who else has 30 DIFFERENT atlases to reference? Of course, an atlas like "Barnes and Noble" is another one that does NOT have their own cartographers.

But the balance of references are highly reputable. Certainly more than a website like Wikipedia that ANY person can enter information, and it becomes fact instantly??. All sources can make errors (mainly minor errors like elevation) but Wikipedia should always be cross checked by another source.

As far as the partitioning of New Guinea, that is what the geographical sources, cartographers, and atlas makers report.  SEE POSTING UNDER "NEWS": AUSTRALIA/OCEANIA CONTINENT DEBATE.  As far as Elbrus, that is also covered in that post, and is related.

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #18 on: Apr 12 2008, 20:40 »

Hi John,

The prestigious Times Atlas (1994 edition) repeats the claims that Carstensz and Ulugh Muztagh are 5030m and 7723m respectively despite the fact that they were re-surveyed in 1971 and 1985 respectively. See Wikipedia for more details. So publications that employ their own cartographers do copy misinformation.

Jonathan
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #19 on: Dec 26 2010, 05:32 »

Some aspects to consider while people think of rational arguments in their favour:

1: Emotions: the "how dare an amateur climber / business man like Dick Bass be the first to achieve the 7 summits" argument

2: Ego: the "if I (Reinhold Messner) am denied a spot on Bass's Vinson ascent, i could undermine his 7 summits achievement by claiming Carstensz is the real one" argument

3: Money: the "there's no 15k per client to be made guiding people up Kosckiuszko" argument

Disclosure: i believe Kosciuszko is the 7th summit (based on rational arguments + the fact that Bass - for better or worse - "created" the concept of the 7 summits in most peoples minds) but will climb both K and CP. Yesterday I actually summited Kosciuszko... cold, windy, foggy... and glad i started early because later in the day there was torrential rainfall, thunder and lightning... which left me shaking my head about the people still up there wearing sandals, t-shirts, etc. (one couple even making slow progress pushing a baby stroller with a little one it forward...)

I will (eventually) also climb CP... but after I've done Everest as nr 7.
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #20 on: Dec 27 2010, 20:56 »

Hi 617,

thanks for the input. Probably this debate will never end as there are many possible views andreasons.
However, I think that all 3 arguments mentioned above are invalid when you know that:
- Messner had identified the 7 summits a long time before and had climbed 6 of the 7 before Dick bass even started climbing them. Dick Bass had the means to go to Vinson, but just because he finished his list first, does noet mean he was the first to come up with the concept (actually others even started before).
- Messner never ran a guiding business.

If you climb Kozie, at least do the Hannel's Spur, the only route that actually involves ascent (1800m up). Still a hike, but much more fun than an iron boardwalk...

Keep on climbing!
Cheers, Harry
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #21 on: Dec 28 2010, 01:57 »

Hi Harry,

Some valid points (and i agree the debate will never come to an end, aside from the "agree to disagree" status which accepts different definitions based on (consistently) applying different criteria).

True Messner never ran a guiding business (although I think he has done some minimal commercial guiding), but many others have. This is no jab at you as you're freely allowing this debate on your forum and aren't demanding inflated prices.

I'm not really aware of who was then the first to think of the 7 summits as a concept. Would require some research. I guess all i can indicate is Bass is the first to have claimed to finish them (and write a book) and only that triggered the publically controversial debate. Would be interesting to know whether Messner challenged Bass on the definition:
- before or after Messner climbed K?
- before or after Bass completed his 7?

I freely admit i did the lazy Thredbo route and consider it more of a nice excercise (although i was pleased with my 1:15 time, i'm not in that bad a shape after all). Back in Sydney now and regret not having also done another route (e.g. Charlotte's Pass). I'm not a purist though...  if a lift goes up to below the summit, i'll take it. Just like i'll also fly to australia rather than swim or use a canoo ;D On Kili i did the Lemosho / Western Breach route though - thought it would be a nicer way to see more of the mountain, avoid teh crowds and get a better acclimatization. Will also take an alternative route up Aconcagua... either Polish Traverse orGuanacos if that's open again I'm intrigued by the glacier route as well but am a bit concerned about whether it represents too  much unnecessary risk. In any case, a few more months to decide... first the battle to get time off from work :-\
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #22 on: Feb 26 2017, 12:31 »

For the world….my 7 Summits list:

Elbrus, summitted June 14, 2003 (booked through Harry!)
Kilimanjaro, summitted December 28, 2003 (used Zara!)
Aconcagua, summitted February, 21, 2005 (private)
Everest, summitted June 2, 2005  (summitted with Harry!)
Wilhelm, summitted Sept 20, 2006 (one of the 3 versions)
Vinson Massif, summitted December 17, 2006 (booked with Alex and Harry)

As far as Denali, Robert Williams, Ben Barranko, and I thought we reached the summit in June 2004, in a white-out snowstorm at 2 in the morning and we were in great condition.  We told the park rangers exactly where we were with a picture of a bench mark, and they said they will count us as summitting.

But recent events have led me to believe we did NOT reach the actual summit.  We now think we were on a false summit just 10 minutes of the actual summit.  So I plan to go back to climb Denali in 2008 and also 2009.  My passion is the 7 Summits!!

Mountain John Christiana

Thanks Harry and MC for the comments!

Just like one of my climbing partners on that Denali trip is going back in 2008 (Bob Williams aka Frodo), my plan is to go back in 2008 AND 2009.  I am now convinced I did not summit.  The reason I will go back in 08 AND 09 is I have several friends that have asked me to be a part of their team.  I do not think I want to mix these friends on the same Denali team.  I do want to make sure that I summit in 08 though, and if I have to go solo, I will.  MC, maybe you can join the team in 09?  My philosophy is that the team should discuss ahead of time all options if someone gets sick or tired.  Of course, safety is first, but I believe safety and success can both be achieved.

AS far as what constitutes a summit, I think that you need to believe yourself that you were on the summit (not what a guide, the park rangers, other climbers tell you), so this is why I am now going back for sure.

AS far as the Oceania thing, I truly believe Wilhelm is the highest, so I am okay with that.  I will certainly climb Kosciusko as well as that was my plan all along, as I have had separate plans to go with good friends (Tanya) and past girlfriends (Breanna), but it just got delayed.

But Harry, as mentioned, I believe ALL 3 versions have good merit and will stand the test of time.

I am really happy that the 7 summits passion is alive and well.  If you think about it, it was just over 20 years ago that Dick Bass started the dream for all of us.  So in the whole realm of things, the 7 summits is just in the beginning stage.

All the best, Mountain John Christiana

Still want to climb Denali.
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Mountain John

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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #23 on: Feb 26 2017, 16:37 »

 ??? ::) Wow why is someone re posting two posts from 2007 which is half the story. Because in 2008 I got additional information and I forwarded the email to the above poster and Harry advising them that I have new information and now agree that our team DID indeed summit Denali in June 2004. Now I am obligated to reply here to supply the full story. Jeez.

What happened is the VFTT team summited Denali in June 2004 in a total whiteout. We were all in great shape but hey we are at the summit. What happened is because of the whiteout I later asked someone to describe the summit and they gave me a doubt. Then I asked a guy on the shuttle bus that lived in Colorado and he said we WERE on the summit and he said he was just there on the summit so he knows. The picture of the summit at the airport also did match what I observed and I called Bob Williams, my summit mate, and said that I am now convinced that we were on the summit. In December of 2008 though, the new information was that I was being targeted for horrendous abuse and I decided that it was not the summit because I could not confirm.

But then Bob Williams led a private expedition up Denali in June 2008 (as I said in above post). I emailed Bob, my summit mate, who I met through Views From The Top (VFTT) after he returned and I asked if he could confirm. Bob (Robert aka Frodo) confirmed that YES we were on the summit in June 2004. He said no doubt. I personally FORWARDED that email to MC Reinhardt and Harry and said that based on this new information I believe we WERE indeed on the summit. So the above re-posts are only half the story and I need to explain the whole story. wow that I need to. I suppose if I personally go back someday I could confirm 100% but I have like 4 confirmations and only 1 no which was a total stranger. Plus the park ranger said we were on the summit.

There was an exact situation for me on the highest mountain in Arizona, Humphrey's Peak, when I was climbing the highest mountains in the 50 states. My friend Rob Krenik, his brothers, and my friend Ray Garcia all climbed the peak in a total whiteout. We thought we summited but I knew it wasn't so I went off on my own to the summit. It was safe for them as they had 5 people. I climbed in deep snow on and on and got to the real summit. But it was total whiteout, same as Denali. So the next day I called the ranger and asked them to describe and they could not confirm. That bothered me just the same as Denali. So I called Rob and said for sure he did not summit and I am not sure about me, so one month later, we drove back and we climbed the mountain in clear weather. Guess what. I was at the summit the first time. There was a half post like railroad wood that was very obvious, but the rangers could not confirm that the first
time. So I did go back and I did confirm and I now have climbed that mountain two times. So Denali could be two times if I go back there too.

So there is the FULL story. I consider I summited until I can prove otherwise. I have one stranger (not with us) that said no and I have several climbers that said yes including my summit mate Bob Williams that confirmed YES in 2008 that we were on the summit and he was with me the first time in 2004. This confirmation was after the above posts. There you go. Jeez. I love the truth and the truth is the whole story.

Go 7 summit climbers! Live your passion. Live the truth. Lots of good stuff coming up. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't live your passion. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't fulfill your goals. Goals are easy. One step at a time. And go Harry, basically my summit mate on Mt. Everest as we summited only about an hour apart on June 2, 2005.
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #24 on: Feb 26 2017, 16:46 »

paragraph 2, line 4 correction: December of 2007
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Re: Oceania highest mountain
« Reply #25 on: Feb 27 2017, 06:59 »

By the way, everyone, so you all understand better, the person that re posted the 2007 posts which was only half the truth is my older sister  :o ;) ::) That might explain. Again, I sent her, MC Reinhardt, and Harry in summer of 2008 (AFTER above posts) my confirmation that we summited AND I FORWARDED the email that I received from Bob Williams (Frodo) with Views From the Top - who is still active on that site and very well respected.
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Not a perfect person, but a true person.
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